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Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner says the term ‘craft beer’ might be obsolete soon

October 6, 2015Chris Crowell

craft beer definition saint arnold
Brock Wagner (on left), owner of Saint Arnold Brewing, sits down with editor Chris Crowell (bright green shorts) to discuss the current state of the craft beer industry.

The craft beer industry is in a weird metaphysical place right now. Physically, it is in great shape — 3,700 plus breweries open, market share up around 11 percent and tons of investment interest. But that last part is causing the weirdness, at least when it comes to the growing list of craft brewers, by the BA definition, that have now been acquired by Big Beer companies. What does it all mean for “craft beer?” And does it matter?

These aren’t just questions posed by a silly CBB editor, but by the founders of the craft beer movement, like Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner. When we chatted with Wagner at the Great American Beer Fest, he went so far as to say the term craft beer might be nearing the end of its usefulness.

First, some background: Wagner has been carrying the craft beer flag for 20 plus years, back when craft beers were more commonly thought of as “microbrews.” His brewery, Saint Arnold, has been a staple of the scene over that period of time. Saint Arnold’s footprint currently is Texas, Louisiana and parts of Florida (slowly going up the coast), but “outside of that, I have no plans on expanding any more. Really, our focus is Texas,” he said.

RELATED: Barrel-aging Q&A: Saint Arnold founder Brock Wagner 

As craft beer slowly started to carve out a niche as an actual industry, Wagner believed it was super important to maintain that small, independent spirit. In fact, he was on the board of the BA from 2004-2008 and was involved in writing the BA definition in 2007, at which time he argued the percentage of ownership allowable by a Big Beer company should be as low as 25 percent.

And now, he seems much less rigid (or at least less interested in being rigid) when it comes to answering “what is craft beer?”

“I think the industry is in a state of change right now,” he said. “ It keeps evolving, and it’s very healthy, but … craft beer has been so successful at changing what beer is in this country. And as that continues to evolve, the line is getting less and less bright. In 20 years from now, I don’t think we’ll be referred to as craft beer as an industry — we’ll just be beer.”

He uses this anecdote to illustrate what he means:

“Sometimes I’ll go to the grocery store to observe beer selection. Just the other day, a guy pulled some Blue Moon off the shelf. I asked him why he made that selection. He said, ‘I really love craft beer.’ I said, ‘Yea, MillerCoors does a really good job with that beer.’ It did not matter to him. He didn’t know, but it didn’t change his position on it.”

Moral of the story: What the customer thinks is craft beer is what craft beer is. So, things are now evolving, “it is tough to tell someone that Hop Stoopid was a craft beer yesterday and today it’s not.”

Brock Wagner, founder/brewer Saint Arnold Brewing Co.
Sure, I had on green shorts, but let us not forget this Brock Wagner shirt from our archives.

“Look at what Widmer is doing. Is that craft beer?” Wagner asks. “It looks like craft beer. They are pretty much operationg on their own. You don’t see the finger prints of a big brewery. So, it becomes difficult, and especially with the hurdles of changing the definition so Boston Beer could still be a craft beer. It just gets harder and harder, and at some point it just becomes an ‘I know it when I see it’ thing. And I think the customer, 20 years from now, will just want to drink good beer.”

So, why now? Why weren’t we thinking this way all along? Well, in Wagner’s view, the aforementioned evolution needed to take place to get to this point.

“The industry was more vulnerable 10 years ago with smaller market share and a lot of people saying they are exclusive AB and wouldn’t touch craft beer,” he said. “You didn’t see the clear path to where we are today, so I think, back then, it was important to protect who we are and hold on to that. … But look at the market share craft has now and how it’s growing and the number of breweries out there; it’s not going away — that’s not a risk at this point — but it’s going to change.”

“At some level there has to be an evolution and understanding of what’s happening in the market place and what actually matters. The big brewers need the small brewers in their portfolio so they can remain relevant in the marketplace. It is not going to eliminate the other small brewers in the marketplace. It makes good business sense for them. It is not a situation where it’s going to create an environment where small breweries can’t continue to thrive. They will.”

RELATED: Here’s really why craft beer is better than Big Beer

Moving on from “craft beer” as a term wouldn’t have to mean removing categories that identify better beers from watered-down lagers. For example, the IRI uses the labels sub-premium, premium and super premium — going in that direction might make more sense in the market place and with consumers.

“A customer going in and buying a Blue Moon is a potential Saint Arnold customer. So, to put the labels in a different bucket, from a business stand point, makes no sense to me. People aren’t saying ‘I only drink beer from big breweries; they just like the flavor, and it has been well marketed and they know what it is.”

Wagner is a thoughtful guy who seems to adapt with the times, whether he particularly wants to or not, and not just on this issue.

“I was an anti-can guy, but my co-workers revolted, negotiated a contract, presented it and said ‘please sign here,'” he laughs. “You know, I’m learning to enjoy eating crow, cooking it many different ways. I like the cans. I hate hearing myself say that.”

Saint Arnold’s canning business is small right now (under five percent), having only started this February. The brewery is using a machine from CFT Packaging that does about 180 cans a minute.

Evolution. Thinking about things differently — never getting stuck with the way things are — that’s really what a craft beer business is all about, right?

Saint Arnold is always in the news. Before you go, click here and peruse some of their recent headlines.

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The 23 Best Craft Beer Sales and Marketing Ideas in 2019
Here are the big winners of the 2019 Great American Beer Festival with tons of photos from the event
How to brand craft beer
Craft beer branding strategies: How to build customer engagement, retention
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Choosing your craft beer brand names, part II: Trademark clearance

Reader Interactions

Comments

  1. SHADEtxcraft says

    October 9, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/XiO4JN6hNb

    Log in to Reply
  2. jrfry19 says

    October 9, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/zyi6KoKOsI via @craftbrewingbiz

    Log in to Reply
  3. BeallBreweryIns says

    October 9, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    So many changes in the #CraftBeer industry lately… Will the term craft #beer soon be obsolete? http://t.co/JLNvHpRBBc

    Log in to Reply
  4. beersnbars says

    October 9, 2015 at 10:36 am

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/RKLNgjg3Ne via @craftbrewingbiz

    Log in to Reply
  5. MikeMooreZA says

    October 9, 2015 at 8:20 am

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/ukRfJav3P0

    Log in to Reply
  6. USbevX says

    October 8, 2015 at 12:01 pm

    ‘Craft Beer’ Might Be Obsolete Soon http://t.co/UkxVXapIox #craftbeer #beer #newnormal #smallbusiness #independent #brewery

    Log in to Reply
  7. jantweats says

    October 7, 2015 at 4:37 pm

    RT @TheGrowlerBC: RT @LiquorandtheLaw: Will #craftbeer still be a term we use in 20yrs? One brewer doesn’t think so: http://t.co/BblVUhNqXg…

    Log in to Reply
  8. TheGrowlerBC says

    October 7, 2015 at 4:35 pm

    RT @LiquorandtheLaw: Will #craftbeer still be a term we use in 20yrs? One brewer doesn’t think so: http://t.co/BblVUhNqXg #BCcraftbeermonth

    Log in to Reply
  9. CaptainCheers says

    October 7, 2015 at 4:20 pm

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/luSxzdS0fj

    Log in to Reply
  10. George_Christie says

    October 7, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    #Agree 100% Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/TCEWnaScvx

    Log in to Reply
  11. BrentStewart17 says

    October 7, 2015 at 12:32 pm

    RT @beerphilosopher: Yes!

    “I think the industry is in a state of change right now,” he said. “ It keeps evolving, and it’s very… http://…

    Log in to Reply
  12. Cizauskas says

    October 7, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    “What the customer thinks is #craftbeer is what craft beer is.” Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner. Via @CraftBrewingBiz: http://t.co/jVT6LFEvFN

    Log in to Reply
  13. BeerthirstRob says

    October 7, 2015 at 11:43 am

    RT @BeerthirstAJP: Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/zwczNW78vD

    Log in to Reply
  14. BeerthirstAJP says

    October 7, 2015 at 10:51 am

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/zwczNW78vD

    Log in to Reply
  15. aperfectpint says

    October 7, 2015 at 10:39 am

    I’ve been saying this for a while. http://t.co/awETzzmRlf

    Log in to Reply
  16. beerphilosopher says

    October 7, 2015 at 10:35 am

    Yes!

    “I think the industry is in a state of change right now,” he said. “ It keeps evolving, and it’s very… http://t.co/kg35OYb0QC

    Log in to Reply
  17. Eric Dietrick says

    October 7, 2015 at 6:21 am

    Eric Dietrick liked this on Facebook.

    Log in to Reply
  18. Serge Lubomudrov says

    October 6, 2015 at 10:07 pm

    Serge Lubomudrov liked this on Facebook.

    Log in to Reply
  19. thekettleslayer says

    October 6, 2015 at 5:34 pm

    RT @crsimp01: Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/4lQNLik9hw via @craftbrewingbiz

    Log in to Reply
  20. crsimp01 says

    October 6, 2015 at 2:32 pm

    Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner thinks term ‘craft beer’ obsolete http://t.co/4lQNLik9hw via @craftbrewingbiz

    Log in to Reply
  21. Jared Read says

    October 6, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    Jared Read liked this on Facebook.

    Log in to Reply
  22. MctnBeerLeague says

    October 6, 2015 at 2:04 pm

    RT @LiquorandtheLaw: Will #craftbeer still be a term we use in 20yrs? One brewer doesn’t think so: http://t.co/2vjO7MwRjy #BCcraftbeermonth

    Log in to Reply
  23. LiquorandtheLaw says

    October 6, 2015 at 1:59 pm

    Will #craftbeer still be a term we use in 20yrs? One brewer doesn’t think so: http://t.co/2vjO7MwRjy #BCcraftbeermonth

    Log in to Reply
  24. Joseph Fedele says

    October 6, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    I think beer should be called beer.

    Log in to Reply
  25. Jonathan Greenfield says

    October 6, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    Joseph Fedele

    Log in to Reply
  26. Ryan Mader says

    October 6, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    Ryan Mader liked this on Facebook.

    Log in to Reply
  27. Dan Choiniere says

    October 6, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    Dan Choiniere liked this on Facebook.

    Log in to Reply

Trackbacks

  1. Does Craft Beer still Exist? | John at Terrapin says:
    November 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm

    […] country have recently said the term “craft beer” is becoming meaningless. Look at the comments Saint Arnold’s Brock Wagner made last month. Similar statements are happening daily and they are spot […]

    Log in to Reply

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